Forum:Behavioral and leniency issues

http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20091227230730/adventuretimewithfinnandjake/images/archive/b/bc/20100401212842!Wiki.png

---Notice: My intent was not to start a war, only to fix a significant problem. Also, I never said I wanted to "Outlaw all the blogs and disable comments and destroy the wiki." Be wary of lies and rumors.---

I have been observing this wiki for the past month and have noticed several issues, mainly dealing with blogs and bloggers, and the extreme leniency in dealing with issues. The main people that are problems even stated themselves that admins give them a myriad of warnings but never actually act upon the warnings. They also state that they can do whatever they want because they won't get punished. The Recent Wiki Activity page is often spammed with blog comments containing massive amounts of swearing and improper/useless images (some even reference illegal drug use). I'm pretty much baffled that this has been going on for so long and nobody has attempted to rectify it. Because nobody else is stepping up to the plate, I'm taking the first pitch (Oh, the clichè!). I'm not quite sure how this problem became so deeply rooted in the wiki. I just want sensible people's opinions. Do you think there is a problem? If yes, why is it not being dealt with? Why hasn't it been dealt with the past few months... years (I don't know how long it's been a problem)?

I would also like to point out that many of the users that regularly contribute to blogs have nigh negligent relative mainspace edits. This suggests that blogs do not have the betterment of the wiki; rather, it suggests that it is just another form of social media that usually doesn't have much to do with improving the wiki. Saber Sworn  16:09, April 28, 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, please do look into this matter. Quite frankly, the past couple of months have been increasing in the amount of spam, and trolling that I have seen even prior to making this current account. When I log on and check the recent activity page, all I see are pages of blog posts and comments with content/topics completely unrelated to Adventure Time (Most Wikis I'm on disabled blogs and they function way better). Most of the users on them are people who don't contribute to diddly. It is getting hard not to see one of the many children going on and trying to place all their personal and emotional problems into this wiki. They are warping this wiki into a social networking site, when this is a wiki. We are here to put up the best darn encyclopedia... not our personal issues. If they want to be personal go on to facespace or livejournal to blog their problems. True Sephiroth 16:14, April 28, 2012 (UTC)


 * You have just opened Pandora's box. Do you have any idea what you are getting yourself into here? On the other hand, you are the first person to ever take this so seriously. In months, nobody else seemed to bother. What makes you think the others will care? If anything you'll end up making the wiki a less fun place to hang around. It is gonna cost the wiki a lot of visitors. Is that what you want? Marcaline 16:18, April 28, 2012 (UTC)
 * If those users tend to be disruptive and do not tend to contribute to the wiki's wellbeing, then why would they be here? This isn't FB. This is the Adventure Time Wiki. This place isn't meant to deal with people's emotional and social problems and other stuff, that's what FaceBook and those other sites are for (which I don't even have accounts for). This place is meant for Adventure Time. Saber  Sworn  16:33, April 28, 2012 (UTC)
 * This site was started with that purpose, you are right in that. But his changed, evolved, into the place it now is. Changing it would not do the site any good and would make a lot of awesome people abandon the site. Then it would just be another geek-convention again where there is no place for interaction, communication or humour. You are destroying the site that so many people love and the only reason you are doing that is because you yourself do not like it. Marcaline 16:36, April 28, 2012 (UTC)
 * People that YOU think are awesome are NOT people who I think are awesome, I can almost assure you. And if it changed from AT --> what it is now, then why can't it change back? If change is a bad thing, then why did it happen in the first place? That's a double standard. And when many blog users break the rules with impunity, you know there's something wrong... or at least you SHOULD. Saber  Sworn  16:44, April 28, 2012 (UTC)
 * It's not like the world ends when you break a rule. Or two. Or three... because it doesn't, take my word for it. People might smile. They might laugh. Or get pissed. But it's no disaster. Why fix something that isn't broken? What you see as fixing, I see as destroying something that works perfectly fine. You can oil an old bike and make it ride again, you don't have to throw it in the river. Where's the logic in that? Marcaline 16:51, April 28, 2012 (UTC)
 * The old bike has been oiled for months and months now. I think people might start to realize that a brand new, shiny, clean bike is better than an old, rusted, beat up one. Saber  Sworn  16:53, April 28, 2012 (UTC)


 * Well, SS, Marcaline has been here WAY longer then you so I assure you that she's pretty awesome :3

I'm personally tired of this wiki being a heaven for trolls and spam. No wonder the AT crew looks down upon it, if it isn't the speculation running in the articles, it is the users believing their behavior is justifiable. -- Bunai82 (talk) 20:16, April 28, 2012 (UTC)

Some agreement
I definitely think there is way too much leniency in dealing with blog posts, and up until very recently the chat as well. It seems that when a user is angry nobody wants to take action because they know it would make them angrier. I believe this was partially due to the lack of a clear code of conduct, so I would like to think that there will be a bit more control over those things now. I guess all I'm saying is if we're claiming to be PG we shouldn't be okay with users cussing more than what could be considered "scarcely." I can't agree fully with that second paragraph, because the fan related AT content goes into blogs while it doesn't belong in the mainspace. I think it would be acceptable if all blog topics had to be at least somewhat AT themed. Flame Prince Finn 16:15, April 28, 2012 (UTC)
 * The blogs have always been a place for people to talk about things and discuss things about not just the show but a lot of different things. Don't take this away from us. Sure there have been some incidents but overall, it has always been fun. The blogs on this site have been more fun then the blogs on any other site I have ever been on. Marcaline 16:20, April 28, 2012 (UTC)


 * Do you think that maybe they're more "fun" than any other sites because you can do whatever you want here, and not elsewhere? A LOT of different places actually moderate their sites/wikis greatly so significant problems don't arise like they did here. Saber  Sworn  16:24, April 28, 2012 (UTC)


 * I agree with Marcaline
 * Awesome Alice! I do too! :P Marcaline 16:37, April 28, 2012 (UTC)

I'm sure most have heard about Natasha calling the wiki stupid and I believe another staff member did too, but I can't quite remember who did so... Anyway, do you think it is because they look at our articles and say that they're terrible? I don't, because I think that they're relatively decent. But the second you click that Recent Activity page... one probably loses a lot of the respect they probably had. Just the other day, somebody in chat posted a link to the MLP wiki and stated "INVADE!" (which I took screenshots of). They did, and nearly every single one of them got banned. The only one that I can remember that didn't get banned was me, who tried to stop them. I'm not asking for applause or a pat on the back because I don't want it. My point is that users get away with so much around here. I would have liked to have banned the particular invasion-starter but the decision was apparently not up to me... After apologizing to the 4 admins and 5 chat mods who were in the wiki at the time, I could tell that they didn't respect us anymore. They even forbade the talk of AT (during the time I was there, at least) because of people's stupid actions. Saber Sworn  16:22, April 28, 2012 (UTC)
 * You are very personally involved in this aren't you, SS? I sense of lot of personal issues here. Do you feel like people don't respect you or take you seriously enough? Marcaline 16:24, April 28, 2012 (UTC)


 * o OMG! THIS IS MADNESS! blogs should stay forever!" [[File:Staraptor.gif]] Fear  the   Demon [[File:Weavile.gif]] " 17:07, April 28, 2012 (UTC)


 * YEAH! Every other wiki has blogs! Y CANT WE??!?!!?
 * This is madness! Madness? THIS. IS. ADVENTURE TIIIIIIMMEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!! Marcaline 17:09, April 28, 2012 (UTC)
 * Getting rid of blogs and comments will kill this wiki. It would pretty much become the Internet equivalent of a third world country. 67.224.248.125 17:11, April 28, 2012 (UTC):


 * Regular Show wiki has blogs :#\3


 * Oh man. Please. Who gave this guy that much power. He was only here for less than a month and now you gave him the power of chat moderator? This guy is getting insane with power and, as a conspirator, I think he is trying to take over this wiki. Adventure Time is supposed to be fun, but you are making it look like a scientific stuff that has nothing to do with what it really is. SS doesn't have any personal problem, he just have a political syndrome: Just wants more power and more power and more power until they are above everyone and then dethrone everyone. Admins please, don't be blind. Open your eyes and look what is going on. Let's put it in this way, no matter how many people are disagree, if two or three admins want something, It'll happen. Afliador8 17:19, April 28, 2012 (UTC)
 * It's scary isn't it? He probably sees himself like Napoleon or something, it's ridiculous. I don't know who ever decided to make SS a chat moderator but it was a very, very bad decision to make. It made him feel like he's a lot more then he really is. The real Napoleon must be turning in his grave by now. Marcaline 17:22, April 28, 2012 (UTC)
 * Afliador, you obviously didn't heed my warnings. I never said I wanted to take the blogs down. I never said I wanted to delete all the images. I never said I wanted to get rid of comments and chat. I never said I wanted to destroy this wiki. Listening to what the trolls have to say makes one an ignorant and brainwashed individual, like many on this earth are. I DON'T even have much power. Chatmods have no jurisdiction over anything, EXCEPT just chat (a very small portion of the wiki). I expected such arguments from trolls. Only the sensible, intelligent, rational people can discern the truth from the lies. We'll see exactly who those people are. Saber  Sworn  17:32, April 28, 2012 (UTC)
 * Look at you being all morally superior, pretentious and up your own ass, SaberSworn. And I don't think insulting people is gonna be terribly helpful when you want to convince them you are right and we are not. Marcaline 17:35, April 28, 2012 (UTC)
 * I wasn't directly insulting anyone. I was merely saying that the ones who are falling for and believing the lies are very gullible. Can you cite your sources for when I said I wanted to destroy the wiki? NO? Okay then. Saber  Sworn  17:37, April 28, 2012 (UTC)
 * That's just weak man. You know I'm way to busy being a kickass revolutionairy to spend hours digging through all your comments. Anyway, people, FIGHT THE POWER! Marcaline 17:39, April 28, 2012 (UTC)


 * Ok you are right SS. 99.99% of people are stupid, but 99.999% are already brainwashed. We are looking for a better and more technological world? Nope. We are looking for a world without freedoms, where the weak is destroyed for those who think are stronger. You were brainwashed by the system and that's why I'm not (and nobody should) be angry with you. My opinion, start seeing this wiki as it really is, a page where people with interests in common can hang out and get out of the world for a while. Too much trolling? Maybe. Can we do something that brings a final solution to stop that? Yes. Legally? No. The way you're thinking? less.Afliador8 17:52, April 28, 2012 (UTC)

Hey guys, I'll admit I've probably been the most lenient admin around, in the past. And most of the time, that worked out OK. I just kind of hoped the community could be free and open, and police itself. (I'm not talking about vandalism here. I'll ban vandals all day long.) The thing I have trouble dealing with with are social problems: the things that our new code of conduct is meant to address. I can't speak to what other admins will do, but the things people have said in the past day have convinced me to be less lenient on users who are acting in "bad faith." That means users whose actions are intentionally negative and violate our rules. They will receive fewer warnings from me, and more blocks. --Cornprone 22:43, April 28, 2012 (UTC)

Hmm... Personal View
Honestly, I see how blogs are a problem for some people, and I can completely agree that blogs turn into nothing but spam when not AT related. However, i think blogs make up a good portion of this Wiki, I mean how can people post their opinions if they don't have a blog? AT related or not. Meaning, let's say I want to post an idea about how i think AT will go one day, or how it will end, where should I post it if not a blog? I don't want to spam the wiki with pages, or add to a forum where I see that people hardly ever visit unless it affects them directly.

Again however, you can always bring back the feature once things settle down, I mean people are using the blogs as a chat system because it's easier to comment on a blog then it is to edit or add a note to someone's talk page, it's about pleasing the public. Also many people get banned from chat for their own reasons, but if chat is their only way to talk to someone, and you've banned them then they seek out a blog to continue communications. I'm not in agreement or disagreement I just want people to understand where the ideal came from for the idea, as well as those wanting to get rid of it why it would be a bad thing.

Long story short: Blogs can always be brought back if disabled, the cause for wanting the disable in the first place is because people abuse the blog system. There are rules for the entire Wiki, not just chat, and those rules apply all over yet people abuse those rules in the blogs assuming the blogs don't apply. But the admins who have control never do anything about it in the first place, or even inform those people that there is that system so they continue to do it. Some will see this as a Wiki cleaning, the people who aren't here for the wiki will leave because their form of social networking is gone, which in some cases can be a good thing, but others will view this as an attack against them and their friends for their own personal reasons. This is an Adventure Time wiki, however the majority of the images, and blogs have little to nothing to do with the focus of the wiki, which in most cases is considered flaming, spam, and overall distruction. The rules here at this wiki are nothing that's not in any forums code of conduct (though no one reads it), i've seen wiki's with worse rules (by the power of god i guess) survive, I've also seen wiki's with no rules die in a matter of days. This wiki has just the right amount of slack and rule regulation, to disable one feature while others are still available isn't the end of the world, but i don't agree it should be the blogs. I mean there are talk pages, a user could create their own page i guess and have a link on their page for random talks, using chat, etc there's other ways around disabling blogs, but i think blogs should be regulated instead of just taken out.  Katari12  17:58, April 28, 2012 (UTC)
 * I definetely do not think the blogs need to be regulated any further, if anything, the Code of Conduct is going too far. SS is seeing ghosts, he is seeing problems that aren't really there outside of his own mind. And that's really a shame because others will suffer the consequences of his messed up opinion(s). Marcaline 18:04, April 28, 2012 (UTC)


 * Can you at least agree that there are TONS of images and blogs that should be deleted, for sake of too random, never used, never commented on, or never looked at? I mean, saber is going through helping the admins gets rid of some images, most wiki's that i've seen don't even allow non-wiki related images in the wiki, i was super shocked when i saw that, but he's not going after all of them, just a lot of them, there's over like 2000 images on this wiki... If not more or a little less, about 60% of those are random, only added to troll... I mean, some of them can go, don't you agree? And with the blogs, maybe not regulated so much, just calm down on the spam, i mean for example: A user posted a blog with their OC drawing, and asked a simple question in the comments "how can i get the AT creators to see this" and she got trolled. Would you agree that it was unnecessary for her to be trolled in the first place and that something should have been done? At least a little? [[File:Nyan_Cat.gif]] Katari12 [[File:Free_marceline_icon_by_picklecheesepie-d32mn6i.gif]] 18:10, April 28, 2012 (UTC)
 * No I don't think all those images need to be deleted. And SaberSworn was also tagging images for deletion that were AT-related just because HE thought they were innappropriate - even though NOBODY else agreed with him on that. Also, an image can be used only once but that does not mean it HAS to be deleted. What's the harm in keeping such an image? The blog will be messed up when someone reads it and sees all the red links, or just empty pages with only text. The many images don't seem to slow the wiki down so why get rid of them? Marcaline 18:15, April 28, 2012 (UTC)
 * PS: You also need to take in mind what the community wants. And it seems today, the community is making it very clear that we do not want all these images removed. See the polls, see the blogs, judge for yourself. Or make a new poll for all I care. A little democracy is not a bad thing, is it? Marcaline 18:16, April 28, 2012 (UTC)
 * Just because people are screaming the loudest doesn't mean they have the most or best support. I stopped commenting on your blog because it was a futile effort. It doesn't mean I abandoned my viewpoints. Saber  Sworn  18:21, April 28, 2012 (UTC)
 * It's not my blog, it's Demon's. And he started it weeks ago so this is not by any means a new issue. Marcaline 18:22, April 28, 2012 (UTC)
 * Just because it's tagged for deletion doesn't mean it will be deleted, it's just his opinion, he can't delete them himself i don't believe, i think an admin has to approve the tag first. But What I asked was if you agree that there are images that COULD be deleted. I never said all of them, or that the ones he's tagging, i asked if we could all agree that there are unused images, and random images that serve no purpose for not being used. I see where you're coming from, but you answered me with something i didn't ask, I'm just curious as to if anyone can agree on anything at all, being the amount of unused images, or what not. I agree that marking the AT ones shouldn't be done, i honestly haven't looked to see the list, but if I do, I'm sure i could second tag some (none being at related mine would probably be the ones of like ponies that no one uses) [[File:Nyan_Cat.gif]] Katari12 [[File:Free_marceline_icon_by_picklecheesepie-d32mn6i.gif]] 18:23, April 28, 2012 (UTC)
 * No, I am against it for a very simple, technical reason: a file tagged for deletion has to be discussed by admins first, right? But when you wanna get rid of thousends of files, it is going to take ages to delete them all AND discuss them. If you skip the discuss-part, there goes your democracy. If you discuss it all it'll take super long. And once more: what would be the point? What is the harm in having these images? At least by keeping them you know you wouldn; t mess up the blogs. Marcaline 18:26, April 28, 2012 (UTC)


 * So you don't agree that at least ONE or TWO images are not AT related and should be deleted? That's what i'm asking, you're bringing things into it I'm not asking. I'm not asking about thousands of iamges, I'm asking about a few. And the admins will still talk about it, no matter how many there are, that's the point, they are admins that's their job, they just don't approve. You're assuming they will feel overwhelmed and just give up discussion and delete on a whim, that's not how it works.... [[File:Nyan_Cat.gif]] Katari12 [[File:Free_marceline_icon_by_picklecheesepie-d32mn6i.gif]] 18:30, April 28, 2012 (UTC)


 * I don't know and I don't care what you guys think SS has done. The real think he has done wrong is turning this wiki in a place with more rules than fun. It's like school.Afliador8 18:33, April 28, 2012 (UTC)


 * Agreed, Mr. Afliador8. I am honestly pissed at this obscenities. We, as members of this wiki, have rights, and we shouldn't have them taken away. I'll fight more when I'm unbanned. 216.176.129.200 18:49, April 28, 2012 (UTC)


 * He's not adding rules, he's simply getting rid of the fact that we have over 10000 images on this wiki, and there's simply not space for it, as well as image that are never touched again after like 1 year. And he's putting the already there rules into play. This whole thing started over emotions and misunderstandings, and it's getting our of control. [[File:Nyan_Cat.gif]] Katari12 [[File:Free_marceline_icon_by_picklecheesepie-d32mn6i.gif]] 18:53, April 28, 2012 (UTC)
 * What is it with space? Marcaline 18:59, April 28, 2012 (UTC)


 * Everytime a website is created, there's space to take into considersation. Main wiki space, user space, image space, etc. Just like with the chat too much of something will slow it down. Too many emotes in chat makes it laggy. Things need to be dealt with in certain ways for it to be made easier on everyone. [[File:Nyan_Cat.gif]] Katari12 [[File:Free_marceline_icon_by_picklecheesepie-d32mn6i.gif]] 19:18, April 28, 2012 (UTC)

Some thoughts on blogs
Blogs and forums on this wiki are pretty similar. Both allow users to post a message, and anyone else can leave messages in response. And yet, because it's just a tiny bit easier to post a blog comment, the content of blog comments turn out to be greatly different: more plentiful and, frankly, worse. I don't mean to pick on any particular user, but look at this user's edit history, and the last 30 or so blog comments they made today, before I was forced to temporarily block them.

Wikia implemented optional modules like blogs and chat because they thought it would attract more users and get users more active. But does this wiki need more active users? Does it need to be a site for general fan discussions in addition to being an Adventure Time wiki (which is what it's actually supposed to be)? Increasingly, I'm thinking not.

About a year ago, we removed badges, because they were causing some people to spam up the wiki with unnecessary edits just to get achievements. And guess what: it worked. We already decided not to turn on message walls and article comments. Would it be a huge leap to turn off blogs and chat? Now, neither I nor the other admins should make that choice unless there is broad community support followed by an official decision. However, I'm just saying that I'm open to the idea, since it was raised by a couple of commenters in this forum thread. --Cornprone 00:54, April 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * I doubt that's ever going to happen man. The community does not want it to happen. It's hard to determine support based on the opinion of just a few people, I know almost for certain that if you would decide this really democratically, the community would vote against it. Or at least the majority of people would. Please don't let the actions of a few people ruin it for the rest of us. It would be a shame and the wiki deserves better. Marcaline 07:15, April 29, 2012 (UTC)